Well, that's what America gets for releasing McDonald's onto the world

"El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First!" (lightningzone) 06/03/2020 at 14:33 • Filed to: None

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davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 14:45

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You really can’t mention that without mentioning this:

Personal Income Tax Rate in Denmark is expected to reach 55 percent by the end of 2020, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations.

Also, the minimum wage is much higher than that in many places in the US.

And yes, the US has a long way to go to fix income disparity.

Danes seem to be okay with the trade-off, fwiw.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-01-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes

fintail > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 14:47

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But things trickle down in Murka, so there’s that.  That’s why the quality of life is so high for everyone.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 14:48

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Yeah, but McDs in the US is supposed to be a temporary job you get out of high school to get some real world experience before you join your Dad’s or one of his friends’ companies . Moving up in life is easy! just network with the right people, especially the ones in your fraternity/sorority. Only lazy people continue with McDs as a career, and giving them all these Scandinavian socialist style benefits only makes them lazier!

fintail > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 14:50

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The key difference is that Danes get something in return for their taxes.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > fintail 06/03/2020 at 14:52

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Just edited to add an article.

Maxima Speed > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 14:54

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Working at McDonalds in Denmark is a very different proposition from working at the golden arches in the US. In denmark all 18 yr old males provide 1 year of compulsory military service essentially serving as tax of one years wages right out of the gate after graduating. (Actually about a half years wages because women are exempt from conscription but will be paying for it through taxes worked in their own jobs). McDonalds doesnt need to be a living wage because it fulfills a different role in society. Its a job for college students working part time, highschoolers, etc. You also end up paying alot more for your burger so did you really win? Working for mcdonalds in denmark though, the hiring pull that they prefer to pull from in the US doesnt exist in the same manner necessarily . Did a research paper in college about the negative economic effects of conscription and its some pretty in teresting stuff and gives better perspective into a lot of things that people like to use to compare the us to some european countries.

For Sweden > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:01

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Yes, mainly a draft 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 15:01

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But I bet working at Mcdonals is still hell no matter what country your in. 

For Sweden > Maxima Speed 06/03/2020 at 15:01

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We need to cut the military budget, and we also need to put literally everyone in the military on their 18th birthday.

Mid Engine > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 15:02

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And this is something people don’t understand. You want free health care? Free education? Employee friendly paid leave and other stuff? You’re going to get the ever-loving shit taxed out of you, all paid by the m iddle class . Signed, a Canadian that gave up and moved to the U.S.

fintail > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 15:08

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Yeah, the Danish military is engaged in a lot of combat, tons to worry about.

Small price to pay to avoid the specter of medical bankruptcy for the rest of your life.

For Sweden > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:15

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Make-work programs shouldn’t include a “die for your Country” requirement, and plenty of countries have enormous public healthcare programs without conscription. Even in the USA, the ~20% of people most at risk of medical bankruptcy have state-funded healthcare, at least according to the first Google result

https://www.kff.org/medicaid/issue-brief/10-things-to-know-about-medicaid-setting-the-facts-straight/

WilliamsSW > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 15:19

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This is a perfect plan and I want it put into place right now.

S igned,

Too Old To Be Drafted

sony1492 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 15:20

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Half of their salary is still alot more

fintail > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 15:22

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Who said the basis for a fair healthcare system is a watered down form of conscription? These are coincidental policies, not dependent on each other. But if one could make that exchange, I am sure plenty would, and would be better off for it.

Who is dying in the name of Denmark? Looks like more of a scout camp than another American war for profit or distraction.

It also appears to be a lottery, rather than universal forced conscription. I also suspect one can claim something like bone spurs and get out of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Denmark

This shit doesn’t happen in mature developed societies:

https://www.thebalance.com/medical-bankruptcy-statistics-4154729

For Sweden > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:23

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Who is dying in the name of Denmark?

Certainly no one when the Germans invade and they immediately surrender.

fintail > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 15:25

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Eh, at least they aren’t selling iron ore to the Nazis while pretending to be “neutral” (and then avoiding responsibility for it eternally onward) :)

Maxima Speed > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:26

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Military service is a major tax though. One years service is ends up being an i dividual tax because its something that everyone has to do, meaning everyone has to pay for it. In Denmark its only males who are required to serve so lets be conservative and say that due to females working and paying taxes as well that you pay for only half of the expenditure of you serving for a year. So right off the bat you’re talking half your income, half your food, half your housing, half of any consumables. Sure you get to pay that in taxes over an extended period but thats ALOT of money. And remember thats thats a tax on top of the taxes you’re already going to be paying. 

For Sweden > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:28

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Pacifism is a commitment

ttyymmnn > WilliamsSW 06/03/2020 at 15:28

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That’s the same as people making medical and tax policy decisions who are all wealthy enough that they don’t need to worry about either one. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > sony1492 06/03/2020 at 15:38

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Not saying it’s not - just show all the facts.

$7.25 is the federal minimum wage, but it’s higher than that in many states.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/best-states/minimum-wage-by-state

fintail > Maxima Speed 06/03/2020 at 15:42

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It’s a draft lottery with an apparent easy out - “fitness”. I am sure bone spurs or a skin rash can defer service. It’d be interesting to see their military budget specifically for 18 year old draftees, and the cost to the taxpayer.

L ooking at what I pay for medical care, I bet the net result is no more expensive there, if not outright cheaper , with a better quality of life.   

The US does many things right, but many socio-economic components, including the healthcare system, are a clusterfuck.     We pay less in tax, ad receive much less benefit, while enjoying everything from sketchy infrastructure to declining economic mobility.

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 15:43

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If you counted healthcare costs as ‘tax’ here a 30 year old in Missouri working full time at the federal minimum wage (no state minimum here) would pay 35 % tax on their income for health insurance alone. If the were married or had kids double that. That plus state income, federal income , Medicare and social security taxes puts our effective tax rate higher than Denmark.

The US just employs an accounting trick to make it look like our taxes are lower even though in most cases they’re effectively higher. I have out of this world benefits that my employer pays most of, I live in a low tax state and I make slightly over 100k annually (I am quite privileged! ) but my effective tax rate is 42 % once you count everything.  If you count me self-funding my own retirement (401k) it’s 48%.

sony1492 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 15:45

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I know, ca minimum wage is nearly double federal. 

facw > Mid Engine 06/03/2020 at 15:53

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How about we make the ultra-rich pay?

America already pays the by far the most for health care per capita in the world (with some of the worst outcomes in the developed world) , and the middle class already bears that absurd cost. Better to make the rich share some of the burden.

Dead_Elvis, Inc. > fintail 06/03/2020 at 15:57

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I’m not pissing on your leg, it’s raining.

/tucks back in, zips up

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:01

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A very good point. As messed up as our healthcare system is, I can’t say I trust our government to do it better/more cost-efficiently if we ever went to a single-payer system... but it’s an absolute crime that any of our fellow citizens lose everything because of medical costs.

I wonder how Denmark’s pension compares with SS + Medicare.

Found this:

In Denmark , the public pension consists of two tiers. The first tier provides a universal income to people over the age of 65. This pension is paid to anyone that meets its qualifications, regardless of a retiree’s contributions. As of 2019, the maximum amount a person could receive was DKK 75.924 (US$11.504).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:11

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MO min wage is $9.45 for 2020, actually. Minimum wage in Missouri will be $12 in 2023; Illinois will be $15 by 2025. Will be interesting to see how state-by-state wage disparities affect business decisions and employee decisions near the borders - I could see a business choosing to open on one side of the border for a cheaper workforce, and employees willing to drive farther from home to make more in a nearby state.

Tekamul > fintail 06/03/2020 at 16:15

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22/hr @ 40/wk is ~$ 47k. 55% would be $25,850. Just the health care would get back most of that (between me and my company, my health care premiums are $17,700/yr with a chunky deductible ).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:16

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Seems like half the average would be a good baseline for the federal minimum wage - currently that would be ~ $11.65, or ~$24k per year. They really need to peg it at some calculable number like this that automatically adjusts, year-by-year, so we don’t have to keep having these conversations.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 06/03/2020 at 16:23

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The grease trap still needs to get cleaned out...

fintail > Tekamul 06/03/2020 at 16:26

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The deductible really hurts, then all of the partially covered stuff.

And when I left my prior employer, the COBRA was something like $800/month.  For one person, and still a few grand deductible.  lol

DipodomysDeserti > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 06/03/2020 at 16:28

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Minimum wage in Arizona is $11/hr. Many states also have requirements that companies provide sick leave for full time employees is they have over a certain number of employees. That graphic was made by someone who doesn’t know how federalism works.

Mid Engine > facw 06/03/2020 at 16:29

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The rich folks that employ an army of accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists? The  guys that stack the deck heavily in their favor? They’re not itching to pay taxes of any sort.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 16:30

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draft beer?

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 16:35

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I’d rather clean the grease trap than deal with customers. The last 2 years I worked at a mcDicks I worked maintenance 3 am -10am. Did plenty of did try jobs, still beteren than working drive thru. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 06/03/2020 at 16:39

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I’m very thankful that my first jobs were at a grocery store, and not in food service.

facw > Mid Engine 06/03/2020 at 16:43

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There’s a lot more of us than them. And the idea that we should just let them take an ever growing share of the pie because they are powerful is clearly one that can’t be embraced. If we can’t do it today, it will be even harder to do tomorrow, it’s not something that can be put off.

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 16:44

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I totally forgot our citizens finally passed a constitutional amendment to raise the minimum wage, thanks for the reminder.

As far as competition between the states there was a big deal about Missouri and Kansas competing for the last few years with both lowering taxes and throwing incentives at businesses from the other state. It ended up over a period of years with a net zero increase in employment in the region or state v state effectively just being a waste of government money for businesses to take short term advantage of.

Most business is consumer driven so it has to be where it is generally speaking.  Higher skilled employers usually take a lot more in to counting where to base than minimum wage.

BigBlock440 > sony1492 06/03/2020 at 16:44

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About $2/hr

BigBlock440 > fintail 06/03/2020 at 16:46

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Who said the basis for a fair healthcare system is a watered down form of conscription? These are coincidental policies, not dependent on each other. But if one could make that exchange, I am sure plenty would, and would be better off for it.

Isn’t that the VA?

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 16:47

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I believe our government is actually the single largest consumer and provider of healthcare here counting the Military, VA and Medicaid/Medicare . It certainly isn’t super-efficient but a lot of the cost issues are actually written into law by lobbyists influencing congress. For example the US government is forbidden from negotiating the purchase price of prescriptions for folks it provides for.  

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 16:48

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That seems like a pretty reasonable proposal, I like it.

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 06/03/2020 at 16:51

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So glad I don’t live in a country where that happens!

Oh wait!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:51

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Just call me up when y’all are ready for a benevolent dictator.

BigBlock440 > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:52

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If you count me self-funding my own retirement (401k) it’s 48%.

Why would you count saving money for you to use later a tax?

Mid Engine > facw 06/03/2020 at 16:54

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The ult ra rich bought and paid for the tax laws, which in turn has led to the most complicated set of laws in the wo rld.

The answ er is quite simple: flat tax for everyone (e.g. 20%) , exclusions for those who make $50k/year or less (they pay nuthin) . Income is b ased on wealth generated throughout the year, regardless of source => I’m looking at you RSU’s , Op tions, stock market gains, etc. Income is i ncome and gets taxed.

The politicians that were given truck loads of money from the rich aren’t gonna do that, they won’t bite the hand that feeds them. I don’t see that changing in my lifetime.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > jminer 06/03/2020 at 16:55

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Tulsa’s currently attempting to steal the new Telsa Gigafactory from Austin. I’m sure the state and city are throwing the kitchen sink at them trying to make it happen...

My take is that they’ve already chosen Austin, and we’re just part of the process as a bargaining chip. We’ll see.

jminer > BigBlock440 06/03/2020 at 16:56

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Because it’s in place a government pension which would normally be funded by taxes so me paying for it and managing it myself is essentially a tax to ensure myself the ability to afford to live past working age.

I’m not counting in other investments in that percentage only 401k contributions.

jminer > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 06/03/2020 at 16:59

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This is a serious problem that in all likeliness will require federal legislature to fix. Giving a company billions of dollars to move from one place to another is a net loss for all involved (outside of the company).

fintail > BigBlock440 06/03/2020 at 17:10

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I can put in 6 months and then be eligible for relatively affordable quality healthcare for life without the risk of going broke or skipping care/food etc to keep up with my premiums?

Or just say I have bone spurs or a rash etc and defer the service but still get t he same benefits?

Doesn’t sound bad at all.  I wonder how many Danish TV commercials are for health coverage.

sony1492 > BigBlock440 06/03/2020 at 17:12

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$3,800 per year

Jb boin > fintail 06/03/2020 at 17:15

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The cost of health insurance in the US doesn’t seem real compared to what we pay in Europe.

I use my company provided insurance which costs me something like 30€/month and i only got a few deductibles, mainly for glasses and dental and they are in the 3 digits at most.

fintail > Jb boin 06/03/2020 at 17:24

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I can acknowledge you guys pay more taxes, but in my not so humble opinion, receive more benefits for those taxes, far out of proportion to the US. I believe it also pencils out to healthcare being cheaper there (fewer middlemen) with objectively better results (healthier populace via greater access to everyday care, longer life expectancies, etc ).

In the past decade I’ve visited the ER a couple times. Both cost 4 figures out of pocket even with my relatively good employer sponsored plan (that would have cost me $800/month on my own). I am lucky in that the care was good, but it has a price.

Nauraushaun > For Sweden 06/03/2020 at 17:30

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I hear it’s one of the best run countries in the world, with some of the happiest people. I’d take a draft and high tax for that.

Darius Raqqah > fintail 06/03/2020 at 17:52

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The virgin sweden

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-exposing-the-skeletons-in-sweden-s-world-war-ii-closet-1.7211906

https://www.rferl.org/a/1083119.html

The Chad Denmark

https://matteroffactsblog.wordpress.com/2013/12/19/99-of-danish-jews-survived-the-holocaust/

Aalternatively.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 06/03/2020 at 20:57

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43 Danes were killed in Afghanistan. They suffered the highest loss per capita of any nation in ISAF.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 06/03/2020 at 21:37

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True , but in my eyes anyway, they were fighting for the ISAF, not in the name of Denmark.  I also suspect they were elite troops and not kids doing their 6-10 month obligation, I doubt a nation like that would send those into the fire.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 06/03/2020 at 22:17

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Neither ISAF nor the UN are nations, and can’t conscript troops. Watch the documentary “Armadillo”. They were sending over young kids who didn’t have a clue, and some of them fucked up. For Denmark’s sake I hope they were experiencing these kinds of losses around Kabul  using Special Forces.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 06/03/2020 at 23:40

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The way I view it, they were there under ISAF or UN, Denmark is a willing and active contributor. Denmark wasn’t representing itself independently, nor fighting for its own well being.

From the data I can find of the groups that take the conscripts (those who don’t get out of service, from everything I’ve read, it isn’t difficult), those in their 4 month (yes, that’s all it is, not 12 months in active military) traditional military service weren’t in combat.   I suspect just like here, some may be career service members and still make mistakes. I haven’t found data showing involuntary conscripts being killed.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 06/04/2020 at 00:24

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Based on what I watched in Armadillo, and the fact that so many Danes managed to die in Afghanistan, sacrificing up troops to the UN and the US is very much in the interest of their nation. They have very little chance of winning any sort of engagement on their own. All the real warriors left that country a long time ago after they exhausted their topsoil. Fun fact, my first name is Danish.

I think your point is that their conscription is largely a farse, and you’re correct. I have a Swiss friend and theirs is also largely for show. Anyone can just pay their way out of it.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 06/04/2020 at 00:54

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I wonder what Denmark can gain via sending troops out, as nobody is really threatening them. Maybe to simply not let the existing military decay, keeping it active in some way, as nobody should be totally defenseless - one can’t count on all alliances.

I have a Swiss friend, too. He thought his time was fun, kind of a target shooting camp - and he had civilian service alternatives . I suspect Danes can be similar. Maybe a more benevolent system in general than some others we may be exposed to.  I can’t imagine such a thing in modern day USA.

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > fintail 06/04/2020 at 08:56

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Working on bankruptcy right now. It is really expensive to tell someone you don’t have money to pay for something. Weird. My work sponsored insurance is terrible . And it might cost me my job, credit score and all that. with the way things are now, and if I was coherent enough, I’d have told them to just let me go.

fintail > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 06/04/2020 at 13:04

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Damn, I hope you’re able to work something out. It kills me to read things like that - hard to call this a truly developed “exceptional” first world nation when such things are not just allowed to happen, but almost seem to be part of the system.

We need single payer yesterday.

Best of luck.

DipodomysDeserti > fintail 06/04/2020 at 13:26

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I’m sure there’s a financial incentive. Also, Putin is very much playing the long game in Europe.

fintail > DipodomysDeserti 06/04/2020 at 13:38

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I can definitely agree re: Putin, Russia has big eyes and kno ws how to be patient. Unfortunately, he also has access to weapons that Denmark would have to use via an ally.